At the far ends of the emerging church spectrum and forever linked in my mind are Doug Pagitt and Mark Driscoll.

And I have a long history with Mark Driscoll, though I doubt he knows it.

My first run-across with Mark was a phone call in the late summer of '97. I was getting ready to graduate out of seminary, was looking high and low for a job, had been doing some pre-pre-pre-emergent kind of talking in our classes at Western, and so someone suggested I call this guy in Seattle who had recently started a church, blah, blah. I called, left a message, and low and behold Mark called back. I asked him for a job. He said, "Uh... we can hardly make rent right now..." So that was a no, but worth the effort and very impressive that he called back. I now get calls and emails like this myself...

But my first real experience with Mark and with Doug was when I was introduced to both of them at the same time: the National Youth Workers Convention in San Diego, 2000. I took, with my buddy Roger, a Critical Concerns Course™ that they did together on Postmodern Ministry or somesuch pre-emergent phrase.

It blew my mind.

At the time, I was a youth/worship pastor in Durham NC. I had returned to America from living and pastoring in Europe (the Netherlands, to be precise) and was struggling, to say the least.

Europe had begun the unstoppable process of horizon broadening, paradigm shifting, and questioning and requestioning that all of us emergents eventually go through.

And North Carolina was tough. Relationally, spiritually, emotionally, physically... I was just doing crap-crap-crappy.

So I was ready. More than ready, I needed to hear what Mark and Doug were saying. No, I wasn't crazy. The "issues" I was beginning to have with church were real... suddenly, a LOT of things made sense. I loved the way they taught and talked and dialogued together.

I got the tapes from that CC course and almost wore them out...

I liked Doug, but I loved Mark. (I've since discovered Doug is exactly like strong coffee- a taste you develop, sometimes slowly, but very, very addicting)

Mark was someone thinking differently, who had the... errr... cajones to say some tough things to the church, Christians, the world... seemingly anyone and everyone :) And more than that, when I talked to him in person, told him a bit of where I was at in life/ministry and the fact that I was probably going to head back to the West Coast, Mark said something along the lines of "Give me a call- hey, who knows- maybe you might end up living at my house." At the time Mark had four guys living in his basement.

I dug the guy.

I went back to Durham to ready myself for yet another move. I was quitting ministry, maybe for a long time, forever even, and going back to the West Coast to work on an MA in Counseling...
My choices were Western in Portland and Mars Hill Grad School in Seattle.

I again called Mark and told him I was coming to Seattle to check out the scene... he seemed a little less enthusiastic, but since I was flying across the country, made some time for me.
It was December of 2000. I got there, found the church (at that time they were in a small church building they had been given) and Mark showed me around. He took me to their club, a couple of their community houses and finally to this home where he collapsed on the couch. We talked, but he was fairly taciturn- I'm pretty sure I caught him when he was very tired, and most likely at the tail end of the period when he would even consider personally showing some stranger from out of town that showed up on the doorstep around their ministry.

Even though he never really asked much about me, where I was at, or even why I had come to him, Mark still impressed me with his bluntness as he described what he said to their people- Hey! If you're not serving, get on down the road! If you are coming from 45 minutes away, find something closer to home! If you are coming from another church, stay there!

He handed me off to someone in their community who put me up for the night, and the next day, after driving around for HOURS looking for Mars Hill Grad School, I finally gave up and went to Portland. I'm not sure what I was hoping to get from Seattle, or from Mark, but I didn't really find it.

As I drove out of Seattle, I knew it was going to be Portland.

And the rest is history.

As we moved past 2000, Mark seemed to change. I think maybe (pure speculation here) it was getting more theological education at my alma mater (he did the MA in theology that I did), maybe the impact of the presbyterian pastor he co-founded Acts 29 with... I'm not sure what it was, but his car developed a noticable rightward drift. He didn't show up in the emerging church conversation, events, anything...

And then came the Acts 29 Boot camp...

As we began the process of church planting, we briefly thought about pursuing Acts 29. I had reservations about the church planters covenant everyone must sign, mainly the parts where you state you will be Reformed in your theology (I mostly am, but was concerned about the implications of that capital "R") and that you will not have women elders. At the time, we were complementarian, but I could feel a rethinking of that coming on, and didn't know how we would land...

Anyway, I know many have been, many have enjoyed, many have benefited, so not to downgrade anyone else's great experience at an Acts 29 bootcamp... but it was a terrible experience for us. Perhaps it was another "off" time... everything seemed a bit like they had done this one too many times and had lost the zest... the flavoring, relish, salt, savor, seasoning... whatever you want to call it. It just wasn't there. Those were a couple of long days, filling in notebooks, as a couple of people gave some long, long talks...
I won't go into it too much... Our women had some issues with the ladies' ("Wives") track...
I took issue with being told if my wife worked, then I was a "selfish bastard." :) ("How dare you [speaking to the whole group] make your wife shoulder not only her part of the Curse, but half of yours as well?!? Selfish bastard...")

Anyway, the hardest part was the interview with Mark. As a potential planter, we were supposed to get an hour interview to discuss the results of the $300 in tests we had taken online (they've since switched to something either cheaper or free...). I got about 35 minutes because of the session going long.
And in that 35 minutes, Mark decided that I didn't have what it takes, mostly based on a mishearing of what I was talking about concerning our core group. He thought I said we only had 12-14 people after existing as a community for 6 months. I was saying that it was six months between when we decided to plant a church and when we actually did... we were about four months into it, about 2 away from our launch and we had about 12-14 or so... I tried to explain, but our time was up and Mark was ready to deliver the verdict, so...

The long and the short of it is, I felt like I had been looked over shallowly and briefly and dismissed...

Mark encouraged me to think about the House Church movement, instead of planting. :)

And some of the things said about Brian McLaren and others in the emerging church/the movement as a whole were not exactly encouraging either... the whole thing just left a bad taste in my mouth.

I guess we decided not to pursue Acts 29, mostly because we knew they wouldn't take us...


Doug, now... he was growing on me. My first exposure to him had me thinking he was a little out there- I still loved what he was saying, but... I think as I myself got more and more "out there", Doug made more and more sense.

I encountered Doug again at the first Emergent convention. I was there with some friends, and had to "talk them down" after some of Doug's more out there statements... like "I'm not sure that the concept of innerrancy is particularly helpful any longer"...
When Spiritual Formation Re-Imagined (now Church Re-imagined) came out, I bought it for a number of people at Evergreen.
Without going into every detail (I'm not even sure I can put it all into words) Doug, somehow ended up being a huge influence on me. I think the church evergreen is most like is probably Solomon's Porch.
Doug even let me give him a hug at the 3rd Emergent Convention, when I told him he was my hero and how he had impacted greatly the lives of a big group of people in Portland Oregon that he'd never even met. It was a cool moment...


So, that's my personal backstory with these two guys. I have come to think of them in rather Starwarsian terms, though without the implication of a dark side/light side. It's more like in the Revenge of the Sith where we learn these are really two sides of the same thing... two sides of the same movement/impulse.

Mark stands at one end- All about theology and a certain TYPE of theology. Hour and half sermons with no interaction. Just monologue... Surety and Absolutes. Sit down, shut up and listen.

And Doug stands at the other end- all about theology, but not a certain type, much more exploratory... "Progressional Implicatory Preaching" involving the whole community... It's a bit of a journey, and we don't know where it's all going- just that we want to get there together. Sit down, listen to others, but make sure you tell us what you think as well.

I think each one has much to offer the emerging church. I'm glad they're both around. It seems (I sense a disturbance in the force) as though perhaps Mark might be re-engaging a bit in the emerging church dialogue. I don't think that would be a bad thing.

But I do wonder if they are still friends...